Well now David.

[hd1]

He was burning it up for our U23's a season ago, yet left for more opportunities and yet is getting less thanwhat he did for us.

As you say time will tell, but the grass is very rarely always greener

[jameskel]

Agree that our Academy, has churned out shit, for some time. Sears, Stanislas, Perkins... long list of players hyped up, but just not up to it. We as a support, have been so void of exciting talent (Payet and a few other aside) that the slightest sniff of young talent, turns him into Joe Cole

Having said that, unless your a midfielder that can run 600 miles a game, Moyes will probably give you a miss

[h69]

Agree that our Academy, has churned out shit, for some time. Sears, Stanislas, Perkins... long list of players hyped up, but just not up to it. We as a support, have been so void of exciting talent (Payet and a few other aside) that the slightest sniff of young talent, turns him into Joe Cole

Having said that, unless your a midfielder that can run 600 miles a game, Moyes will probably give you a miss

To be honest, we rarely get it wrong when we offload these players. People bay for them to be given a chance but none of these players are good enough. Long gone are the days that players would prefer their local side because they support them. Most kids in the East End support AFC Bengali or Liverpool.

[Whiskyman]

I hope you're right. Our academy used to be one of the best in the country back in the day. However we have produced very few players in recent times who have gone on to have a career at the top level, never mind in our colours. I can only think of Tomkins, Stanislas and Diangana (if I'm being generous) who have represented us at the top level and then gone elsewhere. Add Johnson and I can't think of too many others who have come through over the past 15 years since Mark Noble emerged from the academy. Even Declan Rice came to us after being released by someone else ffs.

We've had the likes of Reece Burke, who is enjoying a decent career in the Championship but no one who has really hit the heights. So the question surely needs asking. We used to do it, why no more ? I'll take your word about the facilities and support infrastructure but either we are no longer able to pick up the best young talent and have to rely on players of lesser quality or something isn't right within the academy itself. It does worry me, and I accept I have absolutely no insight into how good or otherwise the academy coaches are, that there are so many old boys, Carlton Cole, Steve Potts, Kevin Keen, Mark Robson, around that "jobs for the boys" comes to mind.

There has to be a reason wht, for example, Chelsea have Mason Mount, Reece James, Ruben Loftus-Cheek currently gracing their first team. Arsenal have Bukayo Saka, Eddie Nketiah and Emile Smith-Rowe, all home grown. We used to produce players of that quality but, it seems. no more. Surely the question about youth recruitment, and possible shortcomings in the way we go about things, needs to be asked.

But, as I say, I hope your assessment of our structure is an accurate one.

The Arsenal academy players will be given game time at some point, if they're deemed good enough, either when European qualification has been assured with games to spare or at the early stages of the league/f.a cup start ups. Ours will be picked but only to warm the bench, as jock shitty knickers is petrified of trying something remotely different. We took a young kid away to Europe a couple of weeks ago, who supposedly is the real deal and the same thing happened again, bench warming at it's finest. Youngsters ain't stupid and neither are their parents, they want to play, not to be given a sightseeing wish you were hear tour of a town ffs.
Word gets around and if they've no hope of any game time whatsoever they'll leave. Look at last season's European night when he shit the bed and played the kids, we narrowly lost 1-0, they didn't disgrace themselves in front of a full house, what an experience for them. But you never saw them again. Sure he had them on the bench to make the numbers up and they probably learned Czech through Alex Kral, but actual game time, forget it.
There's a reason so many of our academy players want out, and it's all down to one person.

But surely it's ridiculous to blame Moyes for academy products not making the grade when the trend isn't a new one. The players I mentioned who have played some games for us were hardly superstars and there are only 3 of them. Moyes has only been at the club for a few short years, the academy hasn't produced anyone of real talent (I exclude Rice because he came to us second hand so to speak) since Mark Noble FFS. Back in the day we used to be a force to be reckoned with in the F A Youth Cup. We';ve done next to nothing in that competition for years and one season we even managed to get knocked out by fucking Accrington Stanley.

The batch that played in the Zagreb match acquitted themselves reasonably well as you say. But with the exception of Perkins who left and Alese who was sold they are still on our books. Longelo is apparently doing well on loan at Birmingham, Okoflex is getting a bit of game time at Swansea which is encouraging and good for their development. But Chesters is out at Colchester who are languishing at the wrong end of League Two, and he isn't a regular starter there, which doesn't suggest to me someone who is close to being ready to play for West Ham..

As for so many wanting out I'm not close enough to the club to know if this is true or not. Perkins head was turned by money apparently and obviously I've heard the rumblings about Ashby, but tbh as for the rest I haven't got a bloody clue whether they want to stick or twist. No, the problem with the academy has nothing to do with Moyes. I've suspected for some time that the facilities are being compared unfavourably with those of our London rivals but if what HD1 is saying is correct that is apparently not the case. So the question that needs asking is why are Arsenal and Chelsea, to quote just two, able to develop and groom fit for purpose PL footballers while we appear to be unable to do so?

[Whiskyman]

Remind me how Sonny is doing in Leeds PL campaign?

He clearly wasn't and isn't good enough so why would we have tried to keep him (and he was given opportunities to prove himself)?

Good enough for the club to cunt him off for not signing a new contract... obviously West Ham have a better option than Perkins and by all accounts is regularly picked for first team action........or not....

I don't see anything of the Under 18s but people who do reckon the club rate Divin Mubama and Calum Marshall as better prospects than Perkins. I saw Marshall when the Under 18s beat Spurs in that "next generation cup" thing a little while back and he looked the real deal, but of course that was only U18 level. If memory serves Mubama scored in our pre season game in Switzerland.

[Whiskyman]

Played for England at every level from under 15's to under 19's
Record.
Pld 15
Goals 12
Not bad for someone deemed not good enough.

West Ham record 1 appearance in 2 years.

I get what your saying for every 100 or so youngsters trying to make it in the game only a handful will go on to make the grade, it's a tough business. Some will go on to make a living in the lower leagues and have a relatively decent career.
But if you don't give a kid a break, you'll never know.
I think the trouble with Moyes is he sets his standards too high by going back to his Everton days when he brought Wayne Rooney in to the first team. He really didn't have a choice there because it was a well known fact that Rooney was an exceptional talent and other sides were circling. That and the fact of course that they'd have probably lynched him on Merseyside if he had slipped through the net.

He's burning it up in the U21's at Leeds, as for the statement

Remind me how Sonny is doing in Leeds PL campaign?

As an 18 year old he is building his career not in the u 19 but a step up in the U23's one step below the PL.
There are very few 18 year olds playing regularly for any PL side hardly a yardstick to judge a player's quality.
Said it before and stand by it,.... our loss.
Maybe in 2-3 years I might be proved wrong

In all honesty Andy, whilst the point you make about there being few teenagers holding down regular PL spots is a good one, burning it up at U21 level (U23 last season) isn't really a yardstick. OK I know you can only beat what's put in front of you but the standard is pretty bloody average. Which imo is one of the problems young platers at all clubs have. Unless they go out on loan there's very little opportunity to improve their game by playing against seasoned professionals. The old Football Combination and it's Northern equivalent were a good step up for kids coming out of clubs youth set ups back in the day.

[andyginbrasil]

He's burning it up in the U21's at Leeds, as for the statement

Remind me how Sonny is doing in Leeds PL campaign?

As an 18 year old he is building his career not in the u 19 but a step up in the U23's one step below the PL.
There are very few 18 year olds playing regularly for any PL side hardly a yardstick to judge a player's quality.
Said it before and stand by it,.... our loss.
Maybe in 2-3 years I might be proved wrong

In all honesty Andy, whilst the point you make about there being few teenagers holding down regular PL spots is a good one, burning it up at U21 level (U23 last season) isn't really a yardstick. OK I know you can only beat what's put in front of you but the standard is pretty bloody average. Which imo is one of the problems young platers at all clubs have. Unless they go out on loan there's very little opportunity to improve their game by playing against seasoned professionals. The old Football Combination and it's Northern equivalent were a good step up for kids coming out of clubs youth set ups back in the day.

So what is the yard stick?

For me play them in the first team they either make it or fail, and not just judged on a 2 minute appearance.
Rice if I recall was dumped after just 1 game and came back stronger.
Arsenal played a 15 year old the other day....

[Whiskyman]

In all honesty Andy, whilst the point you make about there being few teenagers holding down regular PL spots is a good one, burning it up at U21 level (U23 last season) isn't really a yardstick. OK I know you can only beat what's put in front of you but the standard is pretty bloody average. Which imo is one of the problems young platers at all clubs have. Unless they go out on loan there's very little opportunity to improve their game by playing against seasoned professionals. The old Football Combination and it's Northern equivalent were a good step up for kids coming out of clubs youth set ups back in the day.

So what is the yard stick?

For me play them in the first team they either make it or fail, and not just judged on a 2 minute appearance.
Rice if I recall was dumped after just 1 game and came back stronger.
Arsenal played a 15 year old the other day....

Imo ANY decent young prospect should be out on loan playing at a level that will test his abilities. I've for a long time believed clubs should be allowed to play B teams in the football pyramid to enable young players to remain at their parent club but at the same time play proper, meaningful, competitive matches against seasoned professionals. It works in Spain and Germany so there's no reason why it shouldn't work here as well. The B team could start of in, say, the National League (North or South depending on the club's location) and would be eligible for promotion and relegation with the obvious proviso that it couldn't ever play in the same league as the "A" team. That actually happened to Barcelona when Pep was the manager of their B team, they actually won La Liga 2 but couldn't be promoted,.

I agree coimpletely you can't judge a player until he's had a decent amount of pitch time at senior level but you will be able to get a better idea if he's playing at some sort of level in competitive games rather than against another bunch of kids from another club.

[andyginbrasil]

But surely it's ridiculous to blame Moyes for academy products not making the grade when the trend isn't a new one.

I don't know but I would of thought that Moyes was responsible in bringing in the new youngsters to the academy over the last 2 years, picking out player's that will fit in with his style of play, and instructing training and tactics to the training staff.
Therefore must be responsible for at least some of the crap that's happening in the academy

As a heads up...U21's
So far this season
Played 9......lost......7......Won......0.....Drew....2

Hardly inspiring in a Micky Mouse league

[Dwayne Pipes]

But surely it's ridiculous to blame Moyes for academy products not making the grade when the trend isn't a new one.

I don't know but I would of thought that Moyes was responsible in bringing in the new youngsters to the academy over the last 2 years, picking out player's that will fit in with his style of play, and instructing training and tactics to the training staff.
Therefore must be responsible for at least some of the crap that's happening in the academy

As a heads up...U21's
So far this season
Played 9......lost......7......Won......0.....Drew....2

Hardly inspiring in a Micky Mouse league

That accolade can go to Mark Robson