Finances

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Whiskyman
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Re: Finances

Post by Whiskyman »

Neville Bartos wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:25 pm I genuinely don't understand the Sullivan masterplan. The only thing that makes any sense is keeping the ship afloat until they can sell and keep it all for themselves.
And in truth even that doesn't add up.

For a billionaire business tycoon Sullivan's decision making is bafflingly poor.
I think, even with the debt, we could all see the potential for profit a decent West Ham side in the London Stadium made. And given the $500m valuation we get year on year that seems sound enough.

But the inability for find stability is like playing Russian roulette with a huge % of that value.
I mean if you buy an old property you don't tart up the facade, but leave the knackered foundations in situ. But this is what we get year, after year, after year.

We've talked about this before, but there's no thru line at the club. Players aren't bought to fit a style or philosophy. It's all flavour of the month stuff, or square pegs in round holes. And once the manager who presumably green lit the transfer has gone it's surplus to requirements and hello huge loss.

It's all ineffective, inefficient and it really isn't what potential buyers are looking for.
There are cheaper options already in the top flight, even if you include that London selling point. And if it's a project someone fancies there is plenty of tradition and potential in the lower leagues (see Wolves).

I don't get the strategy, I don't get the finances, I don't get the end game Sullivan is looking for.
I do know a top 8 West Ham side could add $200m to the value of the club, but that Sullivan seems more interested in flirting with relegation which could wipe that and more off the value. Fair play to anyone who has a clue what the little sod is up to.
Your reference to The Sullivan masterplan suggests you think there is one. I am inclined to believe otherwise.
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Neville Bartos
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Re: Finances

Post by Neville Bartos »

Whiskyman wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:39 pm
Neville Bartos wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:25 pm I genuinely don't understand the Sullivan masterplan. The only thing that makes any sense is keeping the ship afloat until they can sell and keep it all for themselves.
And in truth even that doesn't add up.

For a billionaire business tycoon Sullivan's decision making is bafflingly poor.
I think, even with the debt, we could all see the potential for profit a decent West Ham side in the London Stadium made. And given the $500m valuation we get year on year that seems sound enough.

But the inability for find stability is like playing Russian roulette with a huge % of that value.
I mean if you buy an old property you don't tart up the facade, but leave the knackered foundations in situ. But this is what we get year, after year, after year.

We've talked about this before, but there's no thru line at the club. Players aren't bought to fit a style or philosophy. It's all flavour of the month stuff, or square pegs in round holes. And once the manager who presumably green lit the transfer has gone it's surplus to requirements and hello huge loss.

It's all ineffective, inefficient and it really isn't what potential buyers are looking for.
There are cheaper options already in the top flight, even if you include that London selling point. And if it's a project someone fancies there is plenty of tradition and potential in the lower leagues (see Wolves).

I don't get the strategy, I don't get the finances, I don't get the end game Sullivan is looking for.
I do know a top 8 West Ham side could add $200m to the value of the club, but that Sullivan seems more interested in flirting with relegation which could wipe that and more off the value. Fair play to anyone who has a clue what the little sod is up to.
Your reference to The Sullivan masterplan suggests you think there is one. I am inclined to believe otherwise.
It certainly looks that way, but surely most of what Sullivan isn't doing points towards an exit sooner rather than later.
There's zero sense of putting in the groundwork for a long term future. We've no scouting system, no DoF, no plan, nothing. It's seat of the pants everywhere, all the time.
Even Moyes sees it.
Imagine a manager coming in on a short term contract and feeling the need to outline his own vision for the foundation and future of the club. It's amateur hour at a half billion pound sports team.
I cannot believe the moment that deadline passes Sullivan isn't going to be hawking the club for whatever value the latest Forbes list has placed on it (currently $616m).
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Whiskyman
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Re: Finances

Post by Whiskyman »

Neville Bartos wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:23 pm
Whiskyman wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:39 pm

Your reference to The Sullivan masterplan suggests you think there is one. I am inclined to believe otherwise.
It certainly looks that way, but surely most of what Sullivan isn't doing points towards an exit sooner rather than later.
There's zero sense of putting in the groundwork for a long term future. We've no scouting system, no DoF, no plan, nothing. It's seat of the pants everywhere, all the time.
Even Moyes sees it.
Imagine a manager coming in on a short term contract and feeling the need to outline his own vision for the foundation and future of the club. It's amateur hour at a half billion pound sports team.
I cannot believe the moment that deadline passes Sullivan isn't going to be hawking the club for whatever value the latest Forbes list has placed on it (currently $616m).
I agree with your assessment re his timetable. I have always felt that as soon as the deadline apparently applied to repayment of any proceeds is reached he will be looking for buyers.

Which will then be the next problem. The dwarf is not the sort of individual reputable business people would rush to do business with. Remember when Birmingham City was sold. The buyer was a guy called Carson Yeung who already had convictiions for money laundering when he bought the shares. Just the sort of guy the dwarf is likely to have among his circle of contacts I suspect.

And anyone hoping for Arab oil state investment is hardly likely to rush into negotiations whilst Gold is still drawing breath
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Re: Finances

Post by palerider »

Whiskyman wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:33 am
Neville Bartos wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:23 pm

It certainly looks that way, but surely most of what Sullivan isn't doing points towards an exit sooner rather than later.
There's zero sense of putting in the groundwork for a long term future. We've no scouting system, no DoF, no plan, nothing. It's seat of the pants everywhere, all the time.
Even Moyes sees it.
Imagine a manager coming in on a short term contract and feeling the need to outline his own vision for the foundation and future of the club. It's amateur hour at a half billion pound sports team.
I cannot believe the moment that deadline passes Sullivan isn't going to be hawking the club for whatever value the latest Forbes list has placed on it (currently $616m).
I agree with your assessment re his timetable. I have always felt that as soon as the deadline apparently applied to repayment of any proceeds is reached he will be looking for buyers.

Which will then be the next problem. The dwarf is not the sort of individual reputable business people would rush to do business with. Remember when Birmingham City was sold. The buyer was a guy called Carson Yeung who already had convictiions for money laundering when he bought the shares. Just the sort of guy the dwarf is likely to have among his circle of contacts I suspect.

And anyone hoping for Arab oil state investment is hardly likely to rush into negotiations whilst Gold is still drawing breath
If your theory is correct, and it probably is, March 2023 is the date at which no deduction from the proceeds of any sale can be made.

I'm sure that 2 and a half years of little or zero investment could have us trading blows with the likes of Gillingham by then.

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Re: Finances

Post by Olas1 »

So Alan Nixon (journalist) knows more than us! As said in my earlier post there are definitely unanswered questions over our finances!
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Whiskyman
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Re: Finances

Post by Whiskyman »

palerider wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:02 am
Whiskyman wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:33 am

I agree with your assessment re his timetable. I have always felt that as soon as the deadline apparently applied to repayment of any proceeds is reached he will be looking for buyers.

Which will then be the next problem. The dwarf is not the sort of individual reputable business people would rush to do business with. Remember when Birmingham City was sold. The buyer was a guy called Carson Yeung who already had convictiions for money laundering when he bought the shares. Just the sort of guy the dwarf is likely to have among his circle of contacts I suspect.

And anyone hoping for Arab oil state investment is hardly likely to rush into negotiations whilst Gold is still drawing breath
If your theory is correct, and it probably is, March 2023 is the date at which no deduction from the proceeds of any sale can be made.

I'm sure that 2 and a half years of little or zero investment could have us trading blows with the likes of Gillingham by then.
You may well be correct. However if we retain the bulk of our present squad, even with the exception of Rice who I am sure will soon want to actually be in with a shout of winning something, we ought to be able to compete with the bulk of the Premier League clubs which, at least imo, are a pretty mediocre bunch at best.

There will undoubtedly be many squeaky bums, even soiled underwear, but let's face it the bottom of the table is usually far more exciting, even for the neutral, than the usual procession at the other end.

So assuming you mean the end of March 2023 , like the prisoner in his cell chalking off the days of his sentence, I shall start at 941 days and look forward eagerly to the passing of time. I'm sure it will drag.
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Re: Finances

Post by mkhammer »

Was all their Christmases together when we became available...and we know what happens to most Christmas presents.. :lol:

Apart from everything we all know...I just don't get them,they can't be enjoying this surely,whats the point..they must totally
switch off from everything and live in some kinda different reality...if they "were" fans...(Gold is Sulli aint) it must F.in hurt...
The Clubs a Shambles and 60% of it's fans hate you,20% don't like you and 15% don't give a shit..and 5% ..well..there's
always 5%.... :lol:
And they're responsible for Screwing up a Club they "Love and Support"...Talk about thick skinned and not caring...me I'd
be fucking devastated if thought the West Ham Family hated me,cos of what I'd done.

I'm Not like a lot of you....I Think Gold cares,somewhere deep inside anyway...so do wonder what his input is,not a lot...
Brady and Sulli run us....both know diddly bout how to run a Footie Club...should stick to what they know best.

They see it as we're a Pl Club that play in an Olympic Stadium with 55,000 gates....none of that is their doing...
We stayed in the top Flight because of the fan base over the years funding it...got the Iconic ,cos no other fucker wanted it,
I include Spuds in that...only intention they had was to stop us buying it on the cheap..which they done...and Irons will
always have the fanbase to fill any ground...in fact they're mugs for the cheap season tkts...could have gone in moreorless
full price with them and sold out.
Purely business angle...
.. some hardcore might stop as they have but there's Thousands to take there place as they have.
So the not going thing doesn't work..it doesn't affect them a jot..the seat will still be sold,don't go on principle,I get it,
but because of finances...no...

Tripp still interests me..but everythings on hold till 23 unfortunately...

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Re: Finances

Post by Whiskyman »

mkhammer wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:48 am Was all their Christmases together when we became available...and we know what happens to most Christmas presents.. :lol:

Apart from everything we all know...I just don't get them,they can't be enjoying this surely,whats the point..they must totally
switch off from everything and live in some kinda different reality...if they "were" fans...(Gold is Sulli aint) it must F.in hurt...
The Clubs a Shambles and 60% of it's fans hate you,20% don't like you and 15% don't give a shit..and 5% ..well..there's
always 5%.... :lol:
And they're responsible for Screwing up a Club they "Love and Support"...Talk about thick skinned and not caring...me I'd
be fucking devastated if thought the West Ham Family hated me,cos of what I'd done.

I'm Not like a lot of you....I Think Gold cares,somewhere deep inside anyway...so do wonder what his input is,not a lot...
Brady and Sulli run us....both know diddly bout how to run a Footie Club...should stick to what they know best.

They see it as we're a Pl Club that play in an Olympic Stadium with 55,000 gates....none of that is their doing...
We stayed in the top Flight because of the fan base over the years funding it...got the Iconic ,cos no other fucker wanted it,
I include Spuds in that...only intention they had was to stop us buying it on the cheap..which they done...and Irons will
always have the fanbase to fill any ground...in fact they're mugs for the cheap season tkts...could have gone in moreorless
full price with them and sold out.
Purely business angle...
.. some hardcore might stop as they have but there's Thousands to take there place as they have.
So the not going thing doesn't work..it doesn't affect them a jot..the seat will still be sold,don't go on principle,I get it,
but because of finances...no...

Tripp still interests me..but everythings on hold till 23 unfortunately...
Do you really think that around 5% of the fanbase actually approve of the way they're running the club ? I'm not just talking about transfers but things like the scouting system, if there is one, and the training complex, which are, imo, just as important to the running of a football club. Particularly one that can't rely on it's name and history to attract top players.

It's true I no longer go to matches and so haven't the level of contact I used to but even when I did go, early on in their ownership, I came across very few who approved of them. And I think we'd all agree things have deteriorated over time.

If there are people who are out there who do approve I would honestly love to read a defence of their stewardship.
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Re: Finances

Post by mkhammer »

Whiskyman wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:55 am
mkhammer wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:48 am Was all their Christmases together when we became available...and we know what happens to most Christmas presents.. :lol:

Apart from everything we all know...I just don't get them,they can't be enjoying this surely,whats the point..they must totally
switch off from everything and live in some kinda different reality...if they "were" fans...(Gold is Sulli aint) it must F.in hurt...
The Clubs a Shambles and 60% of it's fans hate you,20% don't like you and 15% don't give a shit..and 5% ..well..there's
always 5%.... :lol:
And they're responsible for Screwing up a Club they "Love and Support"...Talk about thick skinned and not caring...me I'd
be fucking devastated if thought the West Ham Family hated me,cos of what I'd done.

I'm Not like a lot of you....I Think Gold cares,somewhere deep inside anyway...so do wonder what his input is,not a lot...
Brady and Sulli run us....both know diddly bout how to run a Footie Club...should stick to what they know best.

They see it as we're a Pl Club that play in an Olympic Stadium with 55,000 gates....none of that is their doing...
We stayed in the top Flight because of the fan base over the years funding it...got the Iconic ,cos no other fucker wanted it,
I include Spuds in that...only intention they had was to stop us buying it on the cheap..which they done...and Irons will
always have the fanbase to fill any ground...in fact they're mugs for the cheap season tkts...could have gone in moreorless
full price with them and sold out.
Purely business angle...
.. some hardcore might stop as they have but there's Thousands to take there place as they have.
So the not going thing doesn't work..it doesn't affect them a jot..the seat will still be sold,don't go on principle,I get it,
but because of finances...no...

Tripp still interests me..but everythings on hold till 23 unfortunately...
Do you really think that around 5% of the fanbase actually approve of the way they're running the club ? I'm not just talking about transfers but things like the scouting system, if there is one, and the training complex, which are, imo, just as important to the running of a football club. Particularly one that can't rely on it's name and history to attract top players.

It's true I no longer go to matches and so haven't the level of contact I used to but even when I did go, early on in their ownership, I came across very few who approved of them. And I think we'd all agree things have deteriorated over time.

If there are people who are out there who do approve I would honestly love to read a defence of their stewardship.
Mate if it were poss..and you could do a survey matchday...I guarantee you you would't get 100% Negative against them..
in fact you'd prob get a surprise in the..."yeah doing Ok not great,but their trying" Mob..there's a few around..if you don't delve
into it like a lot of us do...you can see a different side...outside looking in..well they/we do play in an Olympic Stadium,2nd
highest ST holders,55,000 every game...Got a PL League winning Manager in at huge cost,gave him 200 mill plus to spend,
pay players 80/100 grand a week to coax them in,keep breaking our transfer fees for incoming...that's what some see,
depends how you spin it.
Thing is it's all true...it aint spin..
There's lots go that all they want is to watch the Hammers,and have a few beers with some mates,the politics by passes
them...

Which TBH is my thing Matchday...I wont let the present owners fuck my love and enjoyment of West Ham up...
If the topic comes up,5/10 mins fine...then that's it.
The fans are the Club ...not them...

This is in no way any kind of defence of them...I want them gone...seriously want them gone.....Fuckin seriously want
them gone..... :lol:

PS..see a lot more animosity to them on Forums/Social Media,than do at games.

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Re: Finances

Post by ToneLoc »

Whiskyman wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:58 pm
ToneLoc wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:05 pm
Good rant 👍🏻
How is it a good rant ? It isn't their money was one of the quotes. Well my friend whether we like it or not it fucking well is. They own the bloody club , they are, or at least the dwarf is, the majority shareholder. He can do exactly what he wants because, whether you or I like it or not, it basically IS his fucking money.

I've taken the decision not to waste any more of mine on the club. Or to put it another way not to give any more to stumpy's pension fund. Some people have taken other views. It's their money and if they want to carry on buying overpriced shit in the club shop , or renewing their season tickets, that's their choice.

The year is 2020 and it's not the bloke with the loudest voice who calls the shots, it's the bloke with the dinero. Unfortunate for us supporters but unless someone can come up with £300 million or so that's the way it will stay. Tbh I'm getting mightily pissed off with people who keep on stamping their feet, saying how bloody awful it is, but carry on throwing money into the pot.

Don't like what's happening ? You ain't going to change it so why not walk away until a more acceptable regime rides into town ?
A “good rant” for me is something where someone cares about something so deeply and as an observer you can feel it from the gut regardless as to whether you’re in total agreement with the forensics.

You’re right though Whisk.... it IS their money and we keep giving it to them. As matchday attendees and as Sky/BT subscribers.
Fancy calling your only son "Barnestoneworth"
He's got another name....
Yeah....."United"

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