Radical proposals for the reform of English football

[palerider]

I don't trust that Gonzo chap. His eyebrows are too close together. And you never see his hands properly do you ?

Webbed fingers I suspect.



But he's spot on with that video thingy he did. Good riddance to the greedy cunts if they want to kill the golden goose, because in a few years, Joe Public (or Carlos Public), will get bored shitless with no relegation and fuck-all to play for for most of the teams after half the season's gone.

What I'd give to be on the PL committee the day the Mancs or the Victims plead for re-entry and I could tell them to do one.

[Whiskyman]

Don't know what you base that statement on Terry. Football wasn't invented, or at least organised football wasn't, by the "working man". FFS one of the first F A Cup finals featured a team of Old Etonians FFS.

And the people who watch it have been drawn from all sections of society. Clubs have always been owned by business people,, it's just that today's owners are considerably more wealthy than those in the past. And because there is more money in the game the profits are greater. Stumpy & Dribbly make more money from West Ham than the Cearns family ever did.

It's true that back in the day of the maximum wage players tended to be exclusively from blue collar backgrounds but I would suggest that was more to do with the fact that back then people could earn more money following other careers. That's changed and now we're seeing kids who in the past would have probably gone into business and played for fun at the weekend earning a very good living as professionals.

When I first went(1971),up to the start of the PL,It was a working man's sport..I never see any middle classes at games in my time,(maybe that was just West Ham).Local businessmen ran Football Clubs and were apart of that community.

The Tories,especially under Thatcher detested anything to do with the game,until the PL was born..OK,we know the hooligan element played a massive part in that,but she wanted nothing to do with the game.

It was so working class,that the 1966 Winning World Cup Team were not even recognised in the honors list,but has soon as the PL took off world wide,they were trying to bend over backwards to award them..

Paul Gascoigne and England changed that in 1990.The rest is history.

How do you know you never saw "middle class" people at games when you first went ? And in any case how do you identify someone who is middle class just by looking at them ? Do they all wear three piece suits to matches, or maybe Dinner Jackets like at some of the charity boxing events some of us have no doubt been to

As for the Thatcher government's attitude to football wasn't that mainly concerned with behavioural matters, hooliganism and so on, rather than an attitude towards the game itself ? The government had to take some action. I remember being in Madrid when we played Castilla in the ECWC and it all kicked off which resulted in the return leg being played behind closed doors. There was a bloke , Bert Millichip, who was a big noise on the F A at the time who got on his hind legs and said something along the lines that clubs@ whose fans misbehave abroad should be banned from Europe.

What Millichip completely ignored was that the FAs own team, which of course is England, were followed abroad at the time by some of the most violent and obnoxious football hooligans of the era. With idiots like him running the game I don't think football can blame the government of the day for trying to do something about it.

[terrya1965]

When I first went(1971),up to the start of the PL,It was a working man's sport..I never see any middle classes at games in my time,(maybe that was just West Ham).Local businessmen ran Football Clubs and were apart of that community.

The Tories,especially under Thatcher detested anything to do with the game,until the PL was born..OK,we know the hooligan element played a massive part in that,but she wanted nothing to do with the game.

It was so working class,that the 1966 Winning World Cup Team were not even recognised in the honors list,but has soon as the PL took off world wide,they were trying to bend over backwards to award them..

Paul Gascoigne and England changed that in 1990.The rest is history.

How do you know you never saw "middle class" people at games when you first went ? And in any case how do you identify someone who is middle class just by looking at them ? Do they all wear three piece suits to matches, or maybe Dinner Jackets like at some of the charity boxing events some of us have no doubt been to

As for the Thatcher government's attitude to football wasn't that mainly concerned with behavioural matters, hooliganism and so on, rather than an attitude towards the game itself ? The government had to take some action. I remember being in Madrid when we played Castilla in the ECWC and it all kicked off which resulted in the return leg being played behind closed doors. There was a bloke , Bert Millichip, who was a big noise on the F A at the time who got on his hind legs and said something along the lines that clubs@ whose fans misbehave abroad should be banned from Europe.

What Millichip completely ignored was that the FAs own team, which of course is England, were followed abroad at the time by some of the most violent and obnoxious football hooligans of the era. With idiots like him running the game I don't think football can blame the government of the day for trying to do something about it.

I never met any at West Ham..Like I said,maybe,it was only down at Upton Park?
I have read quite a few articles about Thatcher hating Football..Wasn`t just the hooligans.You can say what you like,you ain`t going to tell me that Football wasn't a working man's sport.The middle and upper class preferred Rugby and Cricket...In 1990.things changed.

[Newmarket]

How do you know you never saw "middle class" people at games when you first went ? And in any case how do you identify someone who is middle class just by looking at them ? Do they all wear three piece suits to matches, or maybe Dinner Jackets like at some of the charity boxing events some of us have no doubt been to

As for the Thatcher government's attitude to football wasn't that mainly concerned with behavioural matters, hooliganism and so on, rather than an attitude towards the game itself ? The government had to take some action. I remember being in Madrid when we played Castilla in the ECWC and it all kicked off which resulted in the return leg being played behind closed doors. There was a bloke , Bert Millichip, who was a big noise on the F A at the time who got on his hind legs and said something along the lines that clubs@ whose fans misbehave abroad should be banned from Europe.

What Millichip completely ignored was that the FAs own team, which of course is England, were followed abroad at the time by some of the most violent and obnoxious football hooligans of the era. With idiots like him running the game I don't think football can blame the government of the day for trying to do something about it.

I never met any at West Ham..Like I said,maybe,it was only down at Upton Park?
I have read quite a few articles about Thatcher hating Football..Wasn`t just the hooligans.You can say what you like,you ain`t going to tell me that Football wasn't a working man's sport.The middle and upper class preferred Rugby and Cricket...In 1990.things changed.

Tegs
You will never convince a Tory voting middle class ex-corporate football fan that it is , or indeed has ever been a working class sport.

Give up man , you cannot win .

[terrya1965]

I never met any at West Ham..Like I said,maybe,it was only down at Upton Park?
I have read quite a few articles about Thatcher hating Football..Wasn`t just the hooligans.You can say what you like,you ain`t going to tell me that Football wasn't a working man's sport.The middle and upper class preferred Rugby and Cricket...In 1990.things changed.

Tegs
You will never convince a Tory voting middle class ex-corporate football fan that it is , or indeed has ever been a working class sport.

Give up man , you cannot win .

We all can't agree on everything and that is fine by me.It`s all about opinion..

I have total respect for the man and always will.His a decent poster on here and I always enjoy reading what he has to say,whether we agree or not.

[Whiskyman]

How do you know you never saw "middle class" people at games when you first went ? And in any case how do you identify someone who is middle class just by looking at them ? Do they all wear three piece suits to matches, or maybe Dinner Jackets like at some of the charity boxing events some of us have no doubt been to

As for the Thatcher government's attitude to football wasn't that mainly concerned with behavioural matters, hooliganism and so on, rather than an attitude towards the game itself ? The government had to take some action. I remember being in Madrid when we played Castilla in the ECWC and it all kicked off which resulted in the return leg being played behind closed doors. There was a bloke , Bert Millichip, who was a big noise on the F A at the time who got on his hind legs and said something along the lines that clubs@ whose fans misbehave abroad should be banned from Europe.

What Millichip completely ignored was that the FAs own team, which of course is England, were followed abroad at the time by some of the most violent and obnoxious football hooligans of the era. With idiots like him running the game I don't think football can blame the government of the day for trying to do something about it.

I never met any at West Ham..Like I said,maybe,it was only down at Upton Park?
I have read quite a few articles about Thatcher hating Football..Wasn`t just the hooligans.You can say what you like,you ain`t going to tell me that Football wasn't a working man's sport.The middle and upper class preferred Rugby and Cricket...In 1990.things changed.

But you haven't answered my question Terry. I asked how you recognised someone so you could put them in a particular "class". Btw you're right I hate the idea that people should be put in little class boxes depending on the sort of work they do. "Class" or being classy, has absolutely fuck all to do with money.

And what is "a working man" ? I would say it's anyone who doesn't inherit a shitload of money or win the lottery and has to go out to WORK to support his family. Can't rea;;y think of any other way of identifying them tbh.

[mkhammer]

All The "Working Class" Bods that used to go 70s 80s...have now all become "Middle Class" bods in the 2000s 10s and 20s.....

[h69]

Whisky: Football was a working mans sport.

The absolute vast majority of people who played it are working class, the majority of supporters who crammed into stadium were working class.

Just because the rich milked it - doesn't mean its roots aren't working class. I mean - the docker derby was exactly public school was it.

Tennis, Rugby Union and Cricket - yes.

Football has evolved several times and since the advent of the Premier League, all seater stadia and massive revenues - the tourist has been more important than the purist to those than run the game. Its about the dollar not the sport.

Its the American model. Franchises, no relegation, bleed the customer dry. Issue is (and its the same in my industry) the americans don't understand history or tradition, they don't understand Europe is not one country with distinct cultures and philosophies.

An American Bank convincing American owners to milk European football dry.

Stands to reason that in the days when it was 50p-£5 to stand home or away and a tenner for the special train, the majority of fans standing on the terraces were working class (or University students like me )....a few in the seats maybe not so much so.

However now that it costs between 30-90 quid to get in and 100 to get on the train, the demographic is changing and working class people are being squeezed out. The richer the owners, the more the ticket price goes up and unfortunately the attitude that it is a sound business model does not fly with the majority of traditional support.

You have the purists that I would count myself as one that want to watch the team, dont expect too much luxury but want an atmosphere and a competitive league...that is geared towards the fan who watches live.
You have the other camp which Whisky is in where they want a glossy product, all the best players in the world playing here even if it means the top 6 pull away and the league is less competitive and luxury facilities plus the game geared towards the TV fan or the fan that sees a player on the playstation and wants to see him play live.

That does not make the second camp wrong but the PL correctly decided the second camp was where the money was and American investors looked at it and thought 'We'll have some of that'.

I understand why the Americans are doing what they do. I understand why all people are not purists but it ultimately means the death of proper competition in place of an 'arms race' of money and sponsorship, giant clubs hoarding the best players and for me it has ruined the game. How much further would Hudson-Odoi have come if he was playing for us or Newcastle rather than playing in Chelsea's reserves and being denied a move to Bayern....what about the other 40 they have out on loan

So I can see why people that traditionally were in the first camp feel betrayed and I also think ultimately that it has ruined the sport as a competitive sport and replaced it with a spectacle and procession that is more akin to a theatre show. There is more skill now yes, but players rarely look like they are giving their all for their clubs as they know there is another payday down the road and they dont need to.

My favourite games always used to be the fiercely competitive battles on the pitch....much of that is lost.

Just my opinion and I am sure there are many that dont agree with me.

[Whiskyman]

You have the purists that I would count myself as one that want to watch the team, dont expect too much luxury but want an atmosphere and a competitive league...that is geared towards the fan who watches live.
You have the other camp which Whisky is in where they want a glossy product, all the best players in the world playing here even if it means the top 6 pull away and the league is less competitive and luxury facilities plus the game geared towards the TV fan or the fan that sees a player on the playstation and wants to see him play live.

You are absolutely wrong in your assessment of where I stand on the issue. I do however acknowledge the game has evolved from where it was when I started going. I acknowledge, and accept, this because to continually harp on about the past is a pointless exercise.

We have always had those who have and those who haven't. One of my earliest football memories was a bigger, more successful club, Spurs, taking Martin Peters and giving us a past his sell by Jimmy Greaves and a few thousand quid. Of course the gulf has developed into a chasm but that is in part because of the ridiculous FFP regulations which actually prevent wealthy benefactors from turning shabby little nonentity clubs into the "glossy products" you seem to disparage. Where would Chelsea be today without Abramovich, or Man City without Sheikh Mansour ? Is the English game worse off having those 2 clubs being able to challenge the previously undisputed elite ? Would the game not be further improved if more new money could be ploughed into the game with the objective of elevating more of the also rans into serios players ?

And you say I want a "glossy product". I think obnly a neanderthal would honestly say the conditions we endured when we started going to matches were preferable to what we have now. And before we get into a discussion about sitting or standing I do happen to agree that the so called safe standing areas should be encouraged. The stadia we now watch the game in are far superior to some of the crapholes we've visited on our travels in the past. And the quality of pitches has improved immeasurably since the days when Upton Park had been turned into a mudbath by the bloody British Legion Band even before the kick off or games at Derby's old Baseball Ground could only be played when the tide was out.

All of which is getting away from the "working class" thing though. I have never really seen why we insist on lumping people into certain "classes". And what is "working class" ? Is it someone who gets their hands dirty at work as opposed to someone who works in an office ? Is it someone who rents rather than owns their own home ? I honestly don't get it. Nor do I get the notion that a bank manager shouldn't enjoy a game of football as much as a building site labourer. In my book people fall into two categories. A very small minority who have either been born into inherited wealth or have been fortunate enough to win the lottery, and the rest of us who have to go to work, whether it's labouring on a building site or managing a bank, to feed and house our families.

[Whiskyman]

Tegs
You will never convince a Tory voting middle class ex-corporate football fan that it is , or indeed has ever been a working class sport.

Give up man , you cannot win .

We all can't agree on everything and that is fine by me.It`s all about opinion..

I have total respect for the man and always will.His a decent poster on here and I always enjoy reading what he has to say,whether we agree or not.

May I, for the second time today, say Fuck Off.

Or would you prefer me to say Oh, Please Fuck Orff.

It's true I once had a company box. But I also had a season ticket in the D M at the same time. So nah, nah, ne nah, nah, to you old chap.

Working class, blue collar Oik.