China can't or won't pay

[h69]

I think you missed the part where I said it was my opinion.....not the opinion of advertisers

For me there is far too much TV on the box.

Tbh I've never understood the "it's my opinion there's too much (insert subject here) on the tv". Irrespective of the subject matter no one is obliged to watch it. That particularly applies to sports channels of course where, not only is viewing optional but has to be paid for if one wishes to watch". And there's nothing, at least in normal times, stipping the poster you've quoted attending matches and enjoying the things he or she enjoys is there ? Surely it makes no difference to him and those who share that view whether the game is being shown on t v or not.

And what exactly would you prefer to see on the television as an alternative to the T.V?

You miss the point completely again.

Because of the amount of TV football, the kick offs are all over the place which ruins match days in my opinion
Because of the amount of TV football tournaments have gone from 'a tournament of champions' to a tournament of about 50 rich teams
Because of the amount of TV in football the game has gone from a sport to 'entertainment' with 'match day experiences' and packages and 90 quid entrance fees...ugh

I dont tend to watch much on TV....I dont think it is enjoyable like a live game personally but me not watching makes no difference to the above when millions want to watch it in China and Vietnam (hence why the LC draw was there). That is who the game is aimed at now.

I dont necessarily expect you to understand. You obviously enjoy TV football and fair play to you but I think Sky and the PL have ruined the sport as a whole.

You can quote the whole business model stuff to me all you want and yes it is successful for those that advertise or line their pockets but that does not mean it is a good spectacle or a great product.....its just well marketed.

Like I said, my opinion....I think you may not share mine but that does not mean you have to understand it. I get that you like the whole football as a corporate business but I do not. I think the comment you make to flair of the FA cup is a byproduct of the new corporate entertainment package you like so much. I dont criticise you for liking that but I think the sport has lost a lot because of it.

[Whiskyman]

Tbh I've never understood the "it's my opinion there's too much (insert subject here) on the tv". Irrespective of the subject matter no one is obliged to watch it. That particularly applies to sports channels of course where, not only is viewing optional but has to be paid for if one wishes to watch". And there's nothing, at least in normal times, stipping the poster you've quoted attending matches and enjoying the things he or she enjoys is there ? Surely it makes no difference to him and those who share that view whether the game is being shown on t v or not.

And what exactly would you prefer to see on the television as an alternative to the T.V?

You miss the point completely again.

Because of the amount of TV football, the kick offs are all over the place which ruins match days in my opinion
Because of the amount of TV football tournaments have gone from 'a tournament of champions' to a tournament of about 50 rich teams
Because of the amount of TV in football the game has gone from a sport to 'entertainment' with 'match day experiences' and packages and 90 quid entrance fees...ugh

I dont tend to watch much on TV....I dont think it is enjoyable like a live game personally but me not watching makes no difference to the above when millions want to watch it in China and Vietnam (hence why the LC draw was there). That is who the game is aimed at now.

I dont necessarily expect you to understand. You obviously enjoy TV football and fair play to you but I think Sky and the PL have ruined the sport as a whole.

You can quote the whole business model stuff to me all you want and yes it is successful for those that advertise or line their pockets but that does not mean it is a good spectacle or a great product.....its just well marketed.

Like I said, my opinion....I think you may not share mine but that does not mean you have to understand it. I get that you like the whole football as a corporate business but I do not.

I don't think I've misunderstood anything. What I'm saying is that it's horses for courses. You enjoy going to matches. I used to when I had my season ticket so I get that. And I do sympathise with your point about kick off times when they are changed at the last minute. That is patently unfair on people who have paid, often for travelling as well, in advance. However where a game is scheduled for a 14.00 kick off on Sunday and that ko time is known weeks in advance imo that situation doesn't apply, does it ?

And until the Covid-19 shut down grounds were still , in the main, packed out week in and week out so surely that shows the allure of watching live games is still very much alive and kicking.?

[BlackDiamond]

You miss the point completely again.

Because of the amount of TV football, the kick offs are all over the place which ruins match days in my opinion
Because of the amount of TV football tournaments have gone from 'a tournament of champions' to a tournament of about 50 rich teams
Because of the amount of TV in football the game has gone from a sport to 'entertainment' with 'match day experiences' and packages and 90 quid entrance fees...ugh

I dont tend to watch much on TV....I dont think it is enjoyable like a live game personally but me not watching makes no difference to the above when millions want to watch it in China and Vietnam (hence why the LC draw was there). That is who the game is aimed at now.

I dont necessarily expect you to understand. You obviously enjoy TV football and fair play to you but I think Sky and the PL have ruined the sport as a whole.

You can quote the whole business model stuff to me all you want and yes it is successful for those that advertise or line their pockets but that does not mean it is a good spectacle or a great product.....its just well marketed.

Like I said, my opinion....I think you may not share mine but that does not mean you have to understand it. I get that you like the whole football as a corporate business but I do not.

I don't think I've misunderstood anything. What I'm saying is that it's horses for courses. You enjoy going to matches. I used to when I had my season ticket so I get that. And I do sympathise with your point about kick off times when they are changed at the last minute. That is patently unfair on people who have paid, often for travelling as well, in advance. However where a game is scheduled for a 14.00 kick off on Sunday and that ko time is known weeks in advance imo that situation doesn't apply, does it ?

And until the Covid-19 shut down grounds were still , in the main, packed out week in and week out so surely that shows the allure of watching live games is still very much alive and kicking.?

I'm not sure we can blandly claim Sky and the PL have ruined football because of all the money now being generated. That seems an argument that doesn't stand up to any analysis. Because basically it suggests that the quality on offer today is inferior to yesteryear.

Let's take the mid 80s when West Ham finished 3rd and had a real chance of competing for 1st.That great season 85/86, saw Liverpool finish 1st and Everton 2nd. Relegated that year were West Brom,Birmingham and Ipswich Town.

However that division (the old 1st) also included the likes of Oxford Town,Luton,Sheffield Wednesday,QPR,Coventry and Watford. None of which would have a chance of competing in today's PL.

Point being the standard is so much higher and yes Liverpool are still dominant, but far from ruining football,today's money has vastly improved every aspect from talent on the pitch and everything off the pitch. When people argue the opposite,they are really saying, I enjoyed life better when I was younger.

[Whiskyman]

I don't think I've misunderstood anything. What I'm saying is that it's horses for courses. You enjoy going to matches. I used to when I had my season ticket so I get that. And I do sympathise with your point about kick off times when they are changed at the last minute. That is patently unfair on people who have paid, often for travelling as well, in advance. However where a game is scheduled for a 14.00 kick off on Sunday and that ko time is known weeks in advance imo that situation doesn't apply, does it ?

And until the Covid-19 shut down grounds were still , in the main, packed out week in and week out so surely that shows the allure of watching live games is still very much alive and kicking.?

I'm not sure we can blandly claim Sky and the PL have ruined football because of all the money now being generated. That seems an argument that doesn't stand up to any analysis. Because basically it suggests that the quality on offer today is inferior to yesteryear.

Let's take the mid 80s when West Ham finished 3rd and had a real chance of competing for 1st.That great season 85/86, saw Liverpool finish 1st and Everton 2nd. Relegated that year were West Brom,Birmingham and Ipswich Town.

However that division (the old 1st) also included the likes of Oxford Town,Luton,Sheffield Wednesday,QPR,Coventry and Watford. None of which would have a chance of competing in today's PL.

Point being the standard is so much higher and yes Liverpool are still dominant, but far from ruining football,today's money has vastly improved every aspect from talent on the pitch and everything off the pitch. When people argue the opposite,they are really saying, I enjoyed life better when I was younger.

I suppose nostalgia has it's place but I'm inclined to agree with you in respect of the standards. I'm old enough to remember the old jokes about only being able to play when the tide was out at the old derby County stadium, players like Norman Hunter whose only raison d'etre seemed to be crippling the danger men in the opposition's line ups with no fear of sanction from the referee. And from a spectators point of view---well, anyone who went to Stamford Bridge, to name just one in the 70s and 80s will remember the rivers of piss that flowed down from than horrible stinking khazi which stood at the top of the shed.

I don't miss those experiences although I readily admit to enjoying the experience of attending then, just as I did up until I binned my ST a few seasons back. And I certainly don't miss the experience I had at Birmingham City when I got into my one and only physical punch up at a game. With someone who was supposedly supporting West Ham but seemed more intent on climbing over me, and others near me, so he could have a go at adjacently placed Brum fans. And I'll never forget the response from his stupid bloody mate after I'd decked the bloke. "Fuckin' 'ell mate he's one of us, leave it out".

There were some great times back then but there was also a lot of shit. And shit football to go with it. It seems to have always been thus.

[mkhammer]

I don't think I've misunderstood anything. What I'm saying is that it's horses for courses. You enjoy going to matches. I used to when I had my season ticket so I get that. And I do sympathise with your point about kick off times when they are changed at the last minute. That is patently unfair on people who have paid, often for travelling as well, in advance. However where a game is scheduled for a 14.00 kick off on Sunday and that ko time is known weeks in advance imo that situation doesn't apply, does it ?

And until the Covid-19 shut down grounds were still , in the main, packed out week in and week out so surely that shows the allure of watching live games is still very much alive and kicking.?

I'm not sure we can blandly claim Sky and the PL have ruined football because of all the money now being generated. That seems an argument that doesn't stand up to any analysis. Because basically it suggests that the quality on offer today is inferior to yesteryear.

Let's take the mid 80s when West Ham finished 3rd and had a real chance of competing for 1st.That great season 85/86, saw Liverpool finish 1st and Everton 2nd. Relegated that year were West Brom,Birmingham and Ipswich Town.

However that division (the old 1st) also included the likes of Oxford Town,Luton,Sheffield Wednesday,QPR,Coventry and Watford. None of which would have a chance of competing in today's PL.

Point being the standard is so much higher and yes Liverpool are still dominant, but far from ruining football,today's money has vastly improved every aspect from talent on the pitch and everything off the pitch. When people argue the opposite,they are really saying, I enjoyed life better when I was younger.

Yeah good post BD....

I can see everyones POV on this...I miss the "Old Days " as well,but they are what they are..the old days,everything moves on..
Changes...Gigs are different...everyone watching thru a phone...pubs are different,most are glorified restaurants now..the
ones that can't adjust ..shut..and become Flats...or worse still burger bars,lots has changed,

Footie now is a far far better game then was...the fitness/tactics/skill is way ahead of what we used to watch...doesn't
mean it's more exciting...just technically better...been watching /playing footie since can remember,like all of us...
and last few years...I'm learning new stuff,from the likes of Pep..Klomp...especially...thought I knew everything,just goes
to show..
Question is..did this happen cos of Sky Money,or was it just a process,that would have happened anyway...bit of both
I think.

If you're a Footie fan...as well as just a Club fan..think there can be a difference...it's a good time,you get shit loads of TV stuff...
Plus with the increase in capacities,more of a chance to watch your team.
Personal thing...the Lack of 3'0 Clock Sats pisses me off...Can't be arsed with the 120 mile 4/5 hour round trip now,for night games
know lots that have longer journeys..

No fan of Sky/BT...don't subscribe to Either....(BT are Cheating Lying F**Ks) but that's another story...
Shit Moves on..not much we can do about it..so it's about making the most of whats on offer....

Have that attitude with Our Owners...want them to piss off Big Time,and do what I can in my own small way to help
that along...but be fucked if they're gonna stop me going to watch and having a few beers match days ....
The ultimate Catch 22...

[h69]

I don't think I've misunderstood anything. What I'm saying is that it's horses for courses. You enjoy going to matches. I used to when I had my season ticket so I get that. And I do sympathise with your point about kick off times when they are changed at the last minute. That is patently unfair on people who have paid, often for travelling as well, in advance. However where a game is scheduled for a 14.00 kick off on Sunday and that ko time is known weeks in advance imo that situation doesn't apply, does it ?

And until the Covid-19 shut down grounds were still , in the main, packed out week in and week out so surely that shows the allure of watching live games is still very much alive and kicking.?

I'm not sure we can blandly claim Sky and the PL have ruined football because of all the money now being generated. That seems an argument that doesn't stand up to any analysis. Because basically it suggests that the quality on offer today is inferior to yesteryear.

Let's take the mid 80s when West Ham finished 3rd and had a real chance of competing for 1st.That great season 85/86, saw Liverpool finish 1st and Everton 2nd. Relegated that year were West Brom,Birmingham and Ipswich Town.

However that division (the old 1st) also included the likes of Oxford Town,Luton,Sheffield Wednesday,QPR,Coventry and Watford. None of which would have a chance of competing in today's PL.

Point being the standard is so much higher and yes Liverpool are still dominant, but far from ruining football,today's money has vastly improved every aspect from talent on the pitch and everything off the pitch. When people argue the opposite,they are really saying, I enjoyed life better when I was younger.

Quality of individual players and technical skills great. You can appreciate that from your armchair.

Quality of league championship and the sport itself and excitement factor is far lower in my opinion. Hence why the FA cup is no longer valued. People are more interested in watching a dull game between PSG and Bayern than a great cup tie between two English teams now.

[Whiskyman]

I'm not sure we can blandly claim Sky and the PL have ruined football because of all the money now being generated. That seems an argument that doesn't stand up to any analysis. Because basically it suggests that the quality on offer today is inferior to yesteryear.

Let's take the mid 80s when West Ham finished 3rd and had a real chance of competing for 1st.That great season 85/86, saw Liverpool finish 1st and Everton 2nd. Relegated that year were West Brom,Birmingham and Ipswich Town.

However that division (the old 1st) also included the likes of Oxford Town,Luton,Sheffield Wednesday,QPR,Coventry and Watford. None of which would have a chance of competing in today's PL.

Point being the standard is so much higher and yes Liverpool are still dominant, but far from ruining football,today's money has vastly improved every aspect from talent on the pitch and everything off the pitch. When people argue the opposite,they are really saying, I enjoyed life better when I was younger.

Quality of individual players and technical skills great. You can appreciate that from your armchair.

Quality of league championship and the sport itself and excitement factor is far lower in my opinion. Hence why the FA cup is no longer valued. People are more interested in watching a dull game between PSG and Bayern than a great cup tie between two English teams now.

That is so wrong imo. I believe people are more interested in seeing better quality games and will watch PSG v Bayern in the hope of seeing one, rather than watching say, Sheffield United thrashing around against Burnley or Crystal Palace second XIs in a domestic cup tie. People are not interested in watching dull games as you imply but sometimes a game which on paper promises to be a great spectacle turns out to be a dud. It has always been the case.

[h69]

Quality of individual players and technical skills great. You can appreciate that from your armchair.

Quality of league championship and the sport itself and excitement factor is far lower in my opinion. Hence why the FA cup is no longer valued. People are more interested in watching a dull game between PSG and Bayern than a great cup tie between two English teams now.

That is so wrong imo. I believe people are more interested in seeing better quality games and will watch PSG v Bayern in the hope of seeing one, rather than watching say, Sheffield United thrashing around against Burnley or Crystal Palace second XIs in a domestic cup tie. People are not interested in watching dull games as you imply but sometimes a game which on paper promises to be a great spectacle turns out to be a dud. It has always been the case.

And that is where your atmosphere goes. Football supporters in this country have no emotional buy in to borefests like PSG v Bayern but they always did to FA cup games. And second XIs really only started being used in earnest when teams saved their first XIs for other tournaments like the bore a minute Champions league which is not a Champions League or even worse, the Europa League.

PSG v Bayern was shit. Some games at least have great defending but the fact of the matter was that there was little that had to be done. The CL .....A load of rich clubs playing each other every season.....why not call it a European Super league, be done with it, fuck them off with their TV deal for all the Armchair viewers and Chinese viewers and create a league here where there is at least some competition. There is little now.

As for the KO times on a Sunday, again,. you miss the point as it is not the last minute changes I object to, it is a majority of football not being on a Saturday afternoon all at the same time. It made for a better match day when almost all teams were playing at the same time.

I know most on here will not agree with me because many only have TV football and I respect that but Saturday afternoons were a lot more exciting when football was still a sport and not an entertainment spectacle.

[Whiskyman]

That is so wrong imo. I believe people are more interested in seeing better quality games and will watch PSG v Bayern in the hope of seeing one, rather than watching say, Sheffield United thrashing around against Burnley or Crystal Palace second XIs in a domestic cup tie. People are not interested in watching dull games as you imply but sometimes a game which on paper promises to be a great spectacle turns out to be a dud. It has always been the case.

And that is where your atmosphere goes. Football supporters in this country have no emotional buy in to borefests like PSG v Bayern but they always did to FA cup games. And second XIs really only started being used in earnest when teams saved their first XIs for other tournaments like the bore a minute Champions league which is not a Champions League or even worse, the Europa League.

PSG v Bayern was shit. Some games at least have great defending but the fact of the matter was that there was little that had to be done. The CL .....A load of rich clubs playing each other every season.....why not call it a European Super league, be done with it, fuck them off with their TV deal for all the Armchair viewers and Chinese viewers and create a league here where there is at least some competition. There is little now.

As for the KO times on a Sunday, again,. you miss the point as it is not the last minute changes I object to, it is a majority of football not being on a Saturday afternoon all at the same time. It made for a better match day when almost all teams were playing at the same time.

I know most on here will not agree with me because many only have TV football and I respect that but Saturday afternoons were a lot more exciting when football was still a sport and not an entertainment spectacle.

We have seen borefests in F A Cup finals too have we not ? Whether watching a game live or on T V if someone has an emotional attachment to one of the teams the quality of football on offer becomes irrelevant. You have said yourself you do not go to football to be entertained. But if one is not invested in one of the teams involved a boring, sterile match is just that. A boring sterile match.

As a 17 year old I watched my first F A Cup final live in 1975 and thoroughly enjoyed my day. But, having watched a recording of the game later I had to agree with the general consensus of the time that it was an utterly crap game of football for the neutral to watch. I would however suggest the 2006 F A Cup final was an enjoyable watch for neutrals because of the entertainment on offer. It is possible, at least for me, to enjoy a game of football even if I have no specific interest in either team. And I suspect many others can also enjoy a game in that way.

[Newmarket]

That is so wrong imo. I believe people are more interested in seeing better quality games and will watch PSG v Bayern in the hope of seeing one, rather than watching say, Sheffield United thrashing around against Burnley or Crystal Palace second XIs in a domestic cup tie. People are not interested in watching dull games as you imply but sometimes a game which on paper promises to be a great spectacle turns out to be a dud. It has always been the case.

And that is where your atmosphere goes. Football supporters in this country have no emotional buy in to borefests like PSG v Bayern but they always did to FA cup games. And second XIs really only started being used in earnest when teams saved their first XIs for other tournaments like the bore a minute Champions league which is not a Champions League or even worse, the Europa League.

PSG v Bayern was shit. Some games at least have great defending but the fact of the matter was that there was little that had to be done. The CL .....A load of rich clubs playing each other every season.....why not call it a European Super league, be done with it, fuck them off with their TV deal for all the Armchair viewers and Chinese viewers and create a league here where there is at least some competition. There is little now.

As for the KO times on a Sunday, again,. you miss the point as it is not the last minute changes I object to, it is a majority of football not being on a Saturday afternoon all at the same time. It made for a better match day when almost all teams were playing at the same time.

I know most on here will not agree with me because many only have TV football and I respect that but Saturday afternoons were a lot more exciting when football was still a sport and not an entertainment spectacle.

Just a quick reply to say that I agree with every word you say there.

Especially your last 2 paragraphs. Watching the classifieds come in through the tv repair shop window in the Barking Road , crowding around somebody’s transistor radio on the football special on awaydays .... or sitting watching on the tv . Saturdays ruled