Extremism.....

[Neville Bartos]

It's this kind of exaggeration that makes it hard to take you seriously, mate.

In real terms miners went from earning (on average) 20% more than those in manufacturing jobs to around 5% less in two decades. It was a hard, dangerous, dirty job.
And let's not forget these were the days before the rise of workers rights and health and safety.

If you can't see both sides of the argument, you should put a tick in your bias column.

Yeah I was wrong........If you dont wanna take me seriously.....entirely up to you mate.......

http://www.agor.org.uk/cwm/themes/event ... trikes.asp

The Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Robert Carr)

Mr. Speaker, with your permission, and that of the House, I should like to make a statement about the coal industry and the Wilberforce Committee's Report.
The report of the court of inquiry into the coal dispute was received in the early hours of Friday morning. I am sure that the House will wish me to express its great appreciation of the speed and skill with which the court discharged its difficult task.

The court concluded that for a number of reasons which are exceptional to the mining industry— and do not apply in industry generally"— the miners at this particular time have a case for special treatment. The court in its recommendations distinguished two quite separate elements: first, the periodic increase in wages which is normal in all industries and for which it considered the National Coal Board's offers of 7 per cent. to 9 per cent. as perfectly fair; secondly, it recognised what the report calls "an adjustment factor" meaning that— a time may come in any industry when a distortion or trend has to be recognised as due for correction". The court was convinced that on this account the miners' claim should be given exceptional national treatment and that a definite and substantial adjustment in their wage levels was called for.

Taking both these factors into account, the court recommended a settlement over 16 months from 1st November, 1971, giving increases of £4.50 (per week) for face workers, £6 for other underground workers and £5 for surface workers. The court also recommended further negotiations on a number of other issues.

During the course of Friday there were further negotiations between the N.U.M. and the National Coal Board. A number of points within the framework of the Wilberforce Report and also an issue affecting subsidised transport arrangements were agreed, but the N.U.M. pressed for an increase of £1 over and above the increases recommended in the report for workers other than those at the face. The National Coal Board rejected this claim. Talks continued at 10 Downing Street, where the Prime Minister made it clear that the Government supported the board in rejecting the claim for the extra £1. In the event, the N.U.M. dropped this claim but negotiated a concession with the board related to the 5-day week bonus.

With the exception of this concession and that relating to subsidised transport, all the supplementary issues agreed between the board and the N.U.M. were either consequential on the Wilberforce recommendations or were matters which the report recommended should be settled by negotiation.

The union is now carrying out a ballot of its membership and has suspended picketing. It is expected that the ballot result will be known by next Friday. I am sure all sides of the House will join in hoping that the settlement will be endorsed.

The Wilberforce Report emphasises that inflation presents a most serious threat to the standards of living of everyone". It is, therefore, essential that the country as a whole, and in particular all concerned with pay negotiations, should accept that the level of the coal mining settlement is, as the Wilberforce Court explains, due to reasons which are exceptional and do not apply to industry generally. It will continue to be the Government's firm policy, in the interests of greater price stability for the whole community, that the overriding need is to ensure moderation in wage settlements.
___________

Wilberforce stated: that there's no other job in which there is such a combination of danger, health hazard, and discomfort in working conditions. Not to mention social inconvenience and community isolation.

The Wilberforce enquiry found that Miners were substantially underpaid.


No links for the year after year claim? Or car and transport workers?

[mkhammer]

Yeah I was wrong........If you dont wanna take me seriously.....entirely up to you mate.......

http://www.agor.org.uk/cwm/themes/event ... trikes.asp

The Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Robert Carr)

Mr. Speaker, with your permission, and that of the House, I should like to make a statement about the coal industry and the Wilberforce Committee's Report.
The report of the court of inquiry into the coal dispute was received in the early hours of Friday morning. I am sure that the House will wish me to express its great appreciation of the speed and skill with which the court discharged its difficult task.

The court concluded that for a number of reasons which are exceptional to the mining industry— and do not apply in industry generally"— the miners at this particular time have a case for special treatment. The court in its recommendations distinguished two quite separate elements: first, the periodic increase in wages which is normal in all industries and for which it considered the National Coal Board's offers of 7 per cent. to 9 per cent. as perfectly fair; secondly, it recognised what the report calls "an adjustment factor" meaning that— a time may come in any industry when a distortion or trend has to be recognised as due for correction". The court was convinced that on this account the miners' claim should be given exceptional national treatment and that a definite and substantial adjustment in their wage levels was called for.

Taking both these factors into account, the court recommended a settlement over 16 months from 1st November, 1971, giving increases of £4.50 (per week) for face workers, £6 for other underground workers and £5 for surface workers. The court also recommended further negotiations on a number of other issues.

During the course of Friday there were further negotiations between the N.U.M. and the National Coal Board. A number of points within the framework of the Wilberforce Report and also an issue affecting subsidised transport arrangements were agreed, but the N.U.M. pressed for an increase of £1 over and above the increases recommended in the report for workers other than those at the face. The National Coal Board rejected this claim. Talks continued at 10 Downing Street, where the Prime Minister made it clear that the Government supported the board in rejecting the claim for the extra £1. In the event, the N.U.M. dropped this claim but negotiated a concession with the board related to the 5-day week bonus.

With the exception of this concession and that relating to subsidised transport, all the supplementary issues agreed between the board and the N.U.M. were either consequential on the Wilberforce recommendations or were matters which the report recommended should be settled by negotiation.

The union is now carrying out a ballot of its membership and has suspended picketing. It is expected that the ballot result will be known by next Friday. I am sure all sides of the House will join in hoping that the settlement will be endorsed.

The Wilberforce Report emphasises that inflation presents a most serious threat to the standards of living of everyone". It is, therefore, essential that the country as a whole, and in particular all concerned with pay negotiations, should accept that the level of the coal mining settlement is, as the Wilberforce Court explains, due to reasons which are exceptional and do not apply to industry generally. It will continue to be the Government's firm policy, in the interests of greater price stability for the whole community, that the overriding need is to ensure moderation in wage settlements.
___________

Wilberforce stated: that there's no other job in which there is such a combination of danger, health hazard, and discomfort in working conditions. Not to mention social inconvenience and community isolation.

The Wilberforce enquiry found that Miners were substantially underpaid.


No links for the year after year claim? Or car and transport workers?

Coal Mines were Shit Dated Unkept Dilapidated ,Dangerous Places to work that belonged in the 1860s...No ones arguing that..
I've been down two...I've seen it..
People in the 20th Century in what "should" have been a wealthy affluent country,should not be working in those conditions..
I wanna get that clear...

All I'm referring to are the Impossible Wage demands........Nev I'm not making shit up ..it's out there...all the Major
Trade Unions...in Car Plants ...Mines...Steel....you name it ..were demanding wage rises of between 20/30 percent...
at every negotiation for a good few years..and would Strike if not met.
The Country was already fucked...lagging way behind Europe...we were referred to as "The Dirty Old Man of Europe"
Inflation was going crazy...caused partly by the wage demands...it's a vicious circle we were in...
You can guess which Party was in Power...for most of the 15 year period leading up to this breakdown...couple years
of a Heath Government.....Who the Trade Unions freely admitted they wanted to bring him and the COUNTRY down...
They were ...The Trade Union Leaders that is...not It's Members...were happy to see...Hospitals with no Power,
and Rats running round the streets...cos bin men were on strike...cos they wanted a 25% er as well....people on a
3 day week...Power cuts....etc.....lovely fuckin jubbly....we'll show em.....

This was more than just about getting a fair wage for miners...it was politically biased.....43% demands...C'mon........
These Mines in mid seventies..were costing millions to keep open...we could import at about the third of the cost...
And the deeper the mines went ...the longer they went...the more it was costing....a No Brainer they would have shut down
at some point...the Unions brought that forward and made it Harder to do...
Labour and the Unions would have the Shitty old dirty Dangerous places open still now.....

So From a purely Business outlook ...was a crazy situation....the straw that would have broken the camels back was
very close...

[Neville Bartos]

Coal Mines were Shit Dated Unkept Dilapidated ,Dangerous Places to work that belonged in the 1860s...No ones arguing that..
I've been down two...I've seen it..
People in the 20th Century in what "should" have been a wealthy affluent country,should not be working in those conditions..
I wanna get that clear...

All I'm referring to are the Impossible Wage demands........Nev I'm not making shit up ..it's out there...all the Major
Trade Unions...in Car Plants ...Mines...Steel....you name it ..were demanding wage rises of between 20/30 percent...
at every negotiation for a good few years..and would Strike if not met.
The Country was already fucked...lagging way behind Europe...we were referred to as "The Dirty Old Man of Europe"
Inflation was going crazy...caused partly by the wage demands...it's a vicious circle we were in...
You can guess which Party was in Power...for most of the 15 year period leading up to this breakdown...couple years
of a Heath Government.....Who the Trade Unions freely admitted they wanted to bring him and the COUNTRY down...
They were ...The Trade Union Leaders that is...not It's Members...were happy to see...Hospitals with no Power,
and Rats running round the streets...cos bin men were on strike...cos they wanted a 25% er as well....people on a
3 day week...Power cuts....etc.....lovely fuckin jubbly....we'll show em.....

This was more than just about getting a fair wage for miners...it was politically biased.....43% demands...C'mon........
These Mines in mid seventies..were costing millions to keep open...we could import at about the third of the cost...
And the deeper the mines went ...the longer they went...the more it was costing....a No Brainer they would have shut down
at some point...the Unions brought that forward and made it Harder to do...
Labour and the Unions would have the Shitty old dirty Dangerous places open still now.....

So From a purely Business outlook ...was a crazy situation....the straw that would have broken the camels back was
very close...

You have to realise those pits were owned by the public. Coal mining was a nationalised industry until the mid 80s.
What miners were seeing was no real improvement in working conditions combined with wages sliding further and further behind inflation over a period of two decades. So we're not talking about a problem that appeared overnight.

And here is where Britain, so, so often falls down compared with Germany. The Germans invest. They invest in the public and private sector. They invest in people.
It's why Germany's manufacturing as a share of GDP is double Britain's. It's why we have no domestic car industry and Germany has 3 of the biggest auto manufacturers in the world.

We're not really talking about outlandish pay demands, we're talking about a fundamental unwillingness to invest in industry. It's a British disease.

Quick example, my mate Dieter works for the German equivalent of Curry's. We're talking about a bloke approaching 30 getting a bog standard retail job. In less than a year he's fully trained up driving a 7.5 tonne truck. He spends time at college learning communication, logistics, foreign language, and he's even been on a free week long trip to London as part of it.
And he says this is pretty typical.

I like this kind of stuff. It gives employees who might otherwise rot, or slip through the cracks, a sense of progression. The opportunity to move upwards if you put some effort in. And my word that's something this country lacks so badly. I mean, I see people with real potential stuck in a rut because they are just a resource. Something to be used.
It engenders apathy at best, but more often dislike. And that's what sparks the kind of us versus them hatred of the miners strikes.

To get back on topic. The key for domestic industry is to straddle the divide between investing in your industry and profit.
The mining industry and the car industry in this country just didn't do that.
If people don't feel valued, if loyalty isn't fostered in the work force. When the shit hits the fan you're fucked.

I agree. From a business angle it was a ridiculous situation. Fostering enmity between the management and workforce can only ever end badly. Imagine being so out of touch, as management, you'd allow things to spiral that far out of control.
As a long term strategy letting things slide is a slow death. If you're not pushing investment and innovation constantly then you're going backwards.

[mkhammer]

Coal Mines were Shit Dated Unkept Dilapidated ,Dangerous Places to work that belonged in the 1860s...No ones arguing that..
I've been down two...I've seen it..
People in the 20th Century in what "should" have been a wealthy affluent country,should not be working in those conditions..
I wanna get that clear...

All I'm referring to are the Impossible Wage demands........Nev I'm not making shit up ..it's out there...all the Major
Trade Unions...in Car Plants ...Mines...Steel....you name it ..were demanding wage rises of between 20/30 percent...
at every negotiation for a good few years..and would Strike if not met.
The Country was already fucked...lagging way behind Europe...we were referred to as "The Dirty Old Man of Europe"
Inflation was going crazy...caused partly by the wage demands...it's a vicious circle we were in...
You can guess which Party was in Power...for most of the 15 year period leading up to this breakdown...couple years
of a Heath Government.....Who the Trade Unions freely admitted they wanted to bring him and the COUNTRY down...
They were ...The Trade Union Leaders that is...not It's Members...were happy to see...Hospitals with no Power,
and Rats running round the streets...cos bin men were on strike...cos they wanted a 25% er as well....people on a
3 day week...Power cuts....etc.....lovely fuckin jubbly....we'll show em.....

This was more than just about getting a fair wage for miners...it was politically biased.....43% demands...C'mon........
These Mines in mid seventies..were costing millions to keep open...we could import at about the third of the cost...
And the deeper the mines went ...the longer they went...the more it was costing....a No Brainer they would have shut down
at some point...the Unions brought that forward and made it Harder to do...
Labour and the Unions would have the Shitty old dirty Dangerous places open still now.....

So From a purely Business outlook ...was a crazy situation....the straw that would have broken the camels back was
very close...

You have to realise those pits were owned by the public. Coal mining was a nationalised industry until the mid 80s.
What miners were seeing was no real improvement in working conditions combined with wages sliding further and further behind inflation over a period of two decades. So we're not talking about a problem that appeared overnight.

And here is where Britain, so, so often falls down compared with Germany. The Germans invest. They invest in the public and private sector. They invest in people.
It's why Germany's manufacturing as a share of GDP is double Britain's. It's why we have no domestic car industry and Germany has 3 of the biggest auto manufacturers in the world.

We're not really talking about outlandish pay demands, we're talking about a fundamental unwillingness to invest in industry. It's a British disease.

Quick example, my mate Dieter works for the German equivalent of Curry's. We're talking about a bloke approaching 30 getting a bog standard retail job. In less than a year he's fully trained up driving a 7.5 tonne truck. He spends time at college learning communication, logistics, foreign language, and he's even been on a free week long trip to London as part of it.
And he says this is pretty typical.

I like this kind of stuff. It gives employees who might otherwise rot, or slip through the cracks, a sense of progression. The opportunity to move upwards if you put some effort in. And my word that's something this country lacks so badly. I mean, I see people with real potential stuck in a rut because they are just a resource. Something to be used.
It engenders apathy at best, but more often dislike. And that's what sparks the kind of us versus them hatred of the miners strikes.

To get back on topic. The key for domestic industry is to straddle the divide between investing in your industry and profit.
The mining industry and the car industry in this country just didn't do that.
If people don't feel valued, if loyalty isn't fostered in the work force. When the shit hits the fan you're fucked.

I agree. From a business angle it was a ridiculous situation. Fostering enmity between the management and workforce can only ever end badly. Imagine being so out of touch, as management, you'd allow things to spiral that far out of control.
As a long term strategy letting things slide is a slow death. If you're not pushing investment and innovation constantly then you're going backwards.

Although we disagree...a fair bit on this one.... I Enjoy the exchange mate.....

I say disagree ....I do get a lot of what your saying.....I think the core of my argument is that...the "Strikes" over that period....
which were mainly during the Heath Government....were Politically motivated...not necessarily for the benefit of the shop
floor guys and girls....we were moving into a period of international trading and investment being all
important.....because of our Strike record...whether warranted or not....this held up/stopped any investment any investments..
My old man worked for Chryslers Dunstable....hence why we ended up in MK.....the strikes lead to them into jacking it in and
moving elsewhere....by the way my old man was on fuckin good money...really good money as good as you could get,
and they were still striking.....the shit they were striking for honestly mate...it was a fuckin wind up....wasn't usually
for money...health and safety crap....the slightest thing...would not give the company time to resolve it....
....all out brothers ....and meet up down the fuckin pub....
The Unions Destroyed British Car Manufacturing ..of that I have absolutely no doubt..

I can do the Blame game politically....the Labour Government.. Wilson/Callaghan...who were running the Country for
what should have been a boom time...saw Germanys rise Economically were Clueless...didn't help by having they hands
tied by the Trade Unions ...who votes they needed to remain as leader of the party.

My Stance is ...I'm Very Much for the Average Working Class Bod...we all are....I'm a Tory But I'm one because i feel the
working class bod will do better under them....The Trade Unions I believe are not in their best intrests....the modern day
Unions that is ...Back in the day ...Turn of century up till 50s I'd been leading any marches for workers rights...

Now I borderline Hate them...

There just isn't the room /capacity for everyone to really fulfil their potential ,,,every actor doesn't get a leading role
every footballer doesn't make it ....every kid who sings and dances at home with dreams of being beyonce...it aint gonna
happen...it sucks..but thats life....not politics ...life..

The 70s economically was a vicious circle...of Huge Unsustainable pay rises and run away inflation....caused by a weak
Government...controlled by trade unions.......Which limited our investing and pretty much put paid to any Foreign investments..

Your last paragraph mate......you're a capitalist. ..We were letting things slide with the mines to a slow lingering death,
which was draining money out of the system that should have been going elsewhere....

[Neville Bartos]

Although we disagree...a fair bit on this one.... I Enjoy the exchange mate.....

I say disagree ....I do get a lot of what your saying.....I think the core of my argument is that...the "Strikes" over that period....
which were mainly during the Heath Government....were Politically motivated...not necessarily for the benefit of the shop
floor guys and girls....we were moving into a period of international trading and investment being all
important.....because of our Strike record...whether warranted or not....this held up/stopped any investment any investments..
My old man worked for Chryslers Dunstable....hence why we ended up in MK.....the strikes lead to them into jacking it in and
moving elsewhere....by the way my old man was on fuckin good money...really good money as good as you could get,
and they were still striking.....the shit they were striking for honestly mate...it was a fuckin wind up....wasn't usually
for money...health and safety crap....the slightest thing...would not give the company time to resolve it....
....all out brothers ....and meet up down the fuckin pub....
The Unions Destroyed British Car Manufacturing ..of that I have absolutely no doubt..

I can do the Blame game politically....the Labour Government.. Wilson/Callaghan...who were running the Country for
what should have been a boom time...saw Germanys rise Economically were Clueless...didn't help by having they hands
tied by the Trade Unions ...who votes they needed to remain as leader of the party.

My Stance is ...I'm Very Much for the Average Working Class Bod...we all are....I'm a Tory But I'm one because i feel the
working class bod will do better under them....The Trade Unions I believe are not in their best intrests....the modern day
Unions that is ...Back in the day ...Turn of century up till 50s I'd been leading any marches for workers rights...

Now I borderline Hate them...

There just isn't the room /capacity for everyone to really fulfil their potential ,,,every actor doesn't get a leading role
every footballer doesn't make it ....every kid who sings and dances at home with dreams of being beyonce...it aint gonna
happen...it sucks..but thats life....not politics ...life..

The 70s economically was a vicious circle...of Huge Unsustainable pay rises and run away inflation....caused by a weak
Government...controlled by trade unions.......Which limited our investing and pretty much put paid to any Foreign investments..

Your last paragraph mate......you're a capitalist. ..We were letting things slide with the mines to a slow lingering death,
which was draining money out of the system that should have been going elsewhere....

Imagine how boring it'd be if we all agreed on everything, mate.
If other people weren't wrong, I'd get no satisfaction out of always being right.

Political or not, strikes are emblematic of a system that's just not working.
You look back at domestic car manufacture and you see poor quality, poor practices, lack of investment and innovation. Compare that to Germany and Japan, where you get all that and a sense of loyalty going both ways.

You can only exploit discontent if the discontent is there to begin with.

Maybe everyone can't, or doesn't want to, fulfill their potential. That's fine.
But there needs to be opportunity.

I see management who don't care a lot. I see good, solid, hard workers, who care about what they're doing passed over for promotion or advancement all the time. Maybe they don't like putting themselves forward, or they're not matey enough with their manager or supervisor.
How on earth do you get the best out of your staff if you ignore them?

Trouble is poor management has a trickle down effect. If you take care to hire the best people, who take care to hire the best people, etc. That gives you a great shot at success.

The 70s and 80s marked a shift away from the traditional social and economic norms.
It could've been handled a lot better by all involved, but change rarely comes easily. I don't think partisan finger pointing in retrospect helps.

I'm not a capitalist. But I know good capitalism is better than bad capitalism.
Every thing in life benefits from care and attention. The wife, the children, your garden, your pets and your employees. From top to bottom.

Anyway, mate, raise the scarlet standard high
Beneath its folds we'll live and die
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer
We'll keep the red flag flying here.

[mkhammer]

Although we disagree...a fair bit on this one.... I Enjoy the exchange mate.....

I say disagree ....I do get a lot of what your saying.....I think the core of my argument is that...the "Strikes" over that period....
which were mainly during the Heath Government....were Politically motivated...not necessarily for the benefit of the shop
floor guys and girls....we were moving into a period of international trading and investment being all
important.....because of our Strike record...whether warranted or not....this held up/stopped any investment any investments..
My old man worked for Chryslers Dunstable....hence why we ended up in MK.....the strikes lead to them into jacking it in and
moving elsewhere....by the way my old man was on fuckin good money...really good money as good as you could get,
and they were still striking.....the shit they were striking for honestly mate...it was a fuckin wind up....wasn't usually
for money...health and safety crap....the slightest thing...would not give the company time to resolve it....
....all out brothers ....and meet up down the fuckin pub....
The Unions Destroyed British Car Manufacturing ..of that I have absolutely no doubt..

I can do the Blame game politically....the Labour Government.. Wilson/Callaghan...who were running the Country for
what should have been a boom time...saw Germanys rise Economically were Clueless...didn't help by having they hands
tied by the Trade Unions ...who votes they needed to remain as leader of the party.

My Stance is ...I'm Very Much for the Average Working Class Bod...we all are....I'm a Tory But I'm one because i feel the
working class bod will do better under them....The Trade Unions I believe are not in their best intrests....the modern day
Unions that is ...Back in the day ...Turn of century up till 50s I'd been leading any marches for workers rights...

Now I borderline Hate them...

There just isn't the room /capacity for everyone to really fulfil their potential ,,,every actor doesn't get a leading role
every footballer doesn't make it ....every kid who sings and dances at home with dreams of being beyonce...it aint gonna
happen...it sucks..but thats life....not politics ...life..

The 70s economically was a vicious circle...of Huge Unsustainable pay rises and run away inflation....caused by a weak
Government...controlled by trade unions.......Which limited our investing and pretty much put paid to any Foreign investments..

Your last paragraph mate......you're a capitalist. ..We were letting things slide with the mines to a slow lingering death,
which was draining money out of the system that should have been going elsewhere....

Imagine how boring it'd be if we all agreed on everything, mate.
If other people weren't wrong, I'd get no satisfaction out of always being right.

Political or not, strikes are emblematic of a system that's just not working.
You look back at domestic car manufacture and you see poor quality, poor practices, lack of investment and innovation. Compare that to Germany and Japan, where you get all that and a sense of loyalty going both ways.

You can only exploit discontent if the discontent is there to begin with.

Maybe everyone can't, or doesn't want to, fulfill their potential. That's fine.
But there needs to be opportunity.

I see management who don't care a lot. I see good, solid, hard workers, who care about what they're doing passed over for promotion or advancement all the time. Maybe they don't like putting themselves forward, or they're not matey enough with their manager or supervisor.
How on earth do you get the best out of your staff if you ignore them?

Trouble is poor management has a trickle down effect. If you take care to hire the best people, who take care to hire the best people, etc. That gives you a great shot at success.

The 70s and 80s marked a shift away from the traditional social and economic norms.
It could've been handled a lot better by all involved, but change rarely comes easily. I don't think partisan finger pointing in retrospect helps.

I'm not a capitalist. But I know good capitalism is better than bad capitalism.
Every thing in life benefits from care and attention. The wife, the children, your garden, your pets and your employees. From top to bottom.

Anyway, mate, raise the scarlet standard high
Beneath its folds we'll live and die
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer
We'll keep the red flag flying here.

...Nah I'm right on this one mate......

I Guess I just Blame a Poor Government which were controlled by Trade Unions,who are prepared to make the working classes
suffer for political reasons....under the guise of improving the working guys and girls lot.
In which was really a boom time economically for a lot of countries.....and IMO we only caught up cos of one Person....
Who gets the Blame for the Slump caused by the outgoing bunch..
Germany had no Strikes...it really is a simple as that...the Car workers were on fuckin good money mate....and still striking,
an Overflowing Bog....a Welding Chain rivet or something that had come lose...was an hours fix maybe...goes on.
Like said my old man was at home more than he was at bloody work......and that ran right thru the British Car Industry,
Some industries were playing catch...wage wise...granted...lots were taking the piss...but it was under a labour Gov..
Wilson/Callaghan...that led to some on poor wages....
if they'd been on shit money...maybe fair enough.....but they were earning so much....they could AFFORD to strike.

Soon as a couple of guys 3000 years ago decided a Chicken was worth 20 apples...and bartered...you have Capitalism,
it's crazy to deny.....we try and run world economics as some sort of CO-OP were screwed...if doesn't work that way..
...But again you're right...it can and does get out of hand......the art of it is to keep the money moving...soon as it's
hoarded and not used...the Economy downturns.....in a way we need debt to keep the money moving.....all about
borrowing and Lending...........Are the Chinese Serious when they say they are Socialists...don't make me laugh...just
a way of controlling people....maybe they used to be...but they have seen the light...
try and keep stuff short cos get carried away.... but just find it fascinating how things work...

Anyway...

Land of hope and Glory...Mother of the free..
How shall we extol thee..who are born of thee..
Wider still and Wider shall thy bounds be set..
God who made thee mighty ..make thee mightier yet....