Radical proposals for the reform of English football

[terrya1965]

I never met any at West Ham..Like I said,maybe,it was only down at Upton Park?
I have read quite a few articles about Thatcher hating Football..Wasn`t just the hooligans.You can say what you like,you ain`t going to tell me that Football wasn't a working man's sport.The middle and upper class preferred Rugby and Cricket...In 1990.things changed.

But you haven't answered my question Terry. I asked how you recognised someone so you could put them in a particular "class". Btw you're right I hate the idea that people should be put in little class boxes depending on the sort of work they do. "Class" or being classy, has absolutely fuck all to do with money.

And what is "a working man" ? I would say it's anyone who doesn't inherit a shitload of money or win the lottery and has to go out to WORK to support his family. Can't rea;;y think of any other way of identifying them tbh.

A stereotype working class football fan back in the day was somebody who worked all week and had a couple of pints and let steam off on a Saturday Afternoon watching his team.Of course,we had middle class fans,but in comparison to today game,it`s was very few.

Funny really in the last few couple of days,I have watched videos and listened to podcasts and in 2 of them,they have mentioned that West Ham were a "Working class man's club".If you want to check them out,The West Ham Way,then Bubbles and Bill Gardener doing a video on this channel.
Listen.I have my opinion and you have yours and I respect yours too.We can argue about this all day. mate.Nothing will change my mind on that.Just leave it there.I won't mention it again.

[Dwayne Pipes]

Didn’t we used to get 20,000 dockers over there years ago

[h69]

You have the purists that I would count myself as one that want to watch the team, dont expect too much luxury but want an atmosphere and a competitive league...that is geared towards the fan who watches live.
You have the other camp which Whisky is in where they want a glossy product, all the best players in the world playing here even if it means the top 6 pull away and the league is less competitive and luxury facilities plus the game geared towards the TV fan or the fan that sees a player on the playstation and wants to see him play live.

You are absolutely wrong in your assessment of where I stand on the issue. I do however acknowledge the game has evolved from where it was when I started going. I acknowledge, and accept, this because to continually harp on about the past is a pointless exercise.

We have always had those who have and those who haven't. One of my earliest football memories was a bigger, more successful club, Spurs, taking Martin Peters and giving us a past his sell by Jimmy Greaves and a few thousand quid. Of course the gulf has developed into a chasm but that is in part because of the ridiculous FFP regulations which actually prevent wealthy benefactors from turning shabby little nonentity clubs into the "glossy products" you seem to disparage. Where would Chelsea be today without Abramovich, or Man City without Sheikh Mansour ? Is the English game worse off having those 2 clubs being able to challenge the previously undisputed elite ? Would the game not be further improved if more new money could be ploughed into the game with the objective of elevating more of the also rans into serios players ?

And you say I want a "glossy product". I think obnly a neanderthal would honestly say the conditions we endured when we started going to matches were preferable to what we have now. And before we get into a discussion about sitting or standing I do happen to agree that the so called safe standing areas should be encouraged. The stadia we now watch the game in are far superior to some of the crapholes we've visited on our travels in the past. And the quality of pitches has improved immeasurably since the days when Upton Park had been turned into a mudbath by the bloody British Legion Band even before the kick off or games at Derby's old Baseball Ground could only be played when the tide was out.

All of which is getting away from the "working class" thing though. I have never really seen why we insist on lumping people into certain "classes". And what is "working class" ? Is it someone who gets their hands dirty at work as opposed to someone who works in an office ? Is it someone who rents rather than owns their own home ? I honestly don't get it. Nor do I get the notion that a bank manager shouldn't enjoy a game of football as much as a building site labourer. In my book people fall into two categories. A very small minority who have either been born into inherited wealth or have been fortunate enough to win the lottery, and the rest of us who have to go to work, whether it's labouring on a building site or managing a bank, to feed and house our families.

You are right....you clearly dont get it. Your comment about the Old Etonians made me laugh the other day. You conveniently left off the reason why football became first nationwide and then global (Watch the series the English Game) and focussed on its beginnings when it was a closed shop. Seems that is what you favour

The thing about you Whisky is that you cant accept that not everyone has your view. There are many like you and more and more by the day that want to watch football on TV but tell the fans that go what they want and you dont always have the faintest clue what some of us want.

For example, you spent a whole paragraph talking about facilities, stadia and pitches. I personally dont give a shit if there is luxury seating, lovely whitewashed walls, expensive food outlets and a snooker table like pitch etc. Hardly makes it better in my view. Would love to see some of these so called skillful players play on bad pitches to see just how good they are. Some of the best games I have ever seen were on crap pitches in crap stadia.

Has Abramovich or Mansour been good for football ? No. Ask the numbers of decent kids that are hoarded by those teams and never get a chance or a move yet they turn these teams into Playstation type sides with stars from all over the world and now because of these owners, they want to devalue even more the teams below them by taking a bigger share of the vote and playing in an allstar league with a closed shop.

I was quite happy with 3 quid to get in the 'Crapholes' you mentioned before as it was reasonable in price, there was an atmosphere and the games were competitive.....but then I go to watch a game not enjoy facilities. I suggest you find a sports bar....lovely seating in there, good food and you wont have to get cold. Seems to be better for you.

You speak about those who have and those who haven't. You would have to be deluded to think that the gap is the same as it was previously but just because we cant do anything about the changes by 'harping on' does not mean we should love what is put before us.

As for being a neanderthal....well, I am university educated and have a good job but it seems what you mean by neanderthal is 'not a snob'. A bit ironic in your case since you don't go to games any more yet preach to people about what they should expect in a stadium.

Clearly you love sitting at home and watching Skys glossy coverage and in which case, along with the 'Playstation generation' I can understand your views but please dont think that everyone shares yours.

As for what is working class. If you don't understand what that means now then you never will. I can understand that I am lucky enough to be able to afford to go to Football matches all over the country but I also see many that gave up when they were priced out in favour of people that just want to watch Super Sunday or Red Monday on TV. Those that need packaging put around the game, super facilities and all that goes with the glossy SKY offering because the football is not enough for them and they are not passionate enough about the game, that is entirely up to them but there are so many more of them around now.

Each to their own and I did say at the end of the last post that this was MY opinion but I am guessing you decided to omit that also.

[Newmarket]

You are absolutely wrong in your assessment of where I stand on the issue. I do however acknowledge the game has evolved from where it was when I started going. I acknowledge, and accept, this because to continually harp on about the past is a pointless exercise.

We have always had those who have and those who haven't. One of my earliest football memories was a bigger, more successful club, Spurs, taking Martin Peters and giving us a past his sell by Jimmy Greaves and a few thousand quid. Of course the gulf has developed into a chasm but that is in part because of the ridiculous FFP regulations which actually prevent wealthy benefactors from turning shabby little nonentity clubs into the "glossy products" you seem to disparage. Where would Chelsea be today without Abramovich, or Man City without Sheikh Mansour ? Is the English game worse off having those 2 clubs being able to challenge the previously undisputed elite ? Would the game not be further improved if more new money could be ploughed into the game with the objective of elevating more of the also rans into serios players ?

And you say I want a "glossy product". I think obnly a neanderthal would honestly say the conditions we endured when we started going to matches were preferable to what we have now. And before we get into a discussion about sitting or standing I do happen to agree that the so called safe standing areas should be encouraged. The stadia we now watch the game in are far superior to some of the crapholes we've visited on our travels in the past. And the quality of pitches has improved immeasurably since the days when Upton Park had been turned into a mudbath by the bloody British Legion Band even before the kick off or games at Derby's old Baseball Ground could only be played when the tide was out.

All of which is getting away from the "working class" thing though. I have never really seen why we insist on lumping people into certain "classes". And what is "working class" ? Is it someone who gets their hands dirty at work as opposed to someone who works in an office ? Is it someone who rents rather than owns their own home ? I honestly don't get it. Nor do I get the notion that a bank manager shouldn't enjoy a game of football as much as a building site labourer. In my book people fall into two categories. A very small minority who have either been born into inherited wealth or have been fortunate enough to win the lottery, and the rest of us who have to go to work, whether it's labouring on a building site or managing a bank, to feed and house our families.

I was quite happy with 3 quid to get in the 'Crapholes' you mentioned before as it was reasonable in price, there was an atmosphere and the games were competitive.....

You speak about those who have and those who haven't. You would have to be deluded to think that the gap is the same as it was previously but just because we cant do anything about the changes by 'harping on' does not mean we should love what is put before us.



As for what is working class. If you don't understand what that means now then you never will. I can understand that I am lucky enough to be able to afford to go to Football matches all over the country but I also see many that gave up when they were priced out in favour of people that just want to watch Super Sunday or Red Monday on TV. Those that need packaging put around the game, super facilities and all that goes with the glossy SKY offering because the football is not enough for them and they are not passionate enough about the game, that is entirely up to them but there are so many more of them around now.

I’ve picked out these 3 paragraphs out of your post ‘69 because they are the points I mostly relate to speaking from experience.

Mr Whisk doesn’t get the class thing , that’s fair enough he’s obviously a well educated man as well and he’s entitled to his opinion but he’s also aware of the fact that I love winding him up about it in the same way Tassie likes to target his hatred of bubbles ( the song ).

All in good fun .

I like to think I’m a bit of a Footie traditionalist really

Though I don’t dwell TOO much on the past , for example the Boleyn (WHO called it that ffs ?) is gone and I just wish people would get over it .

[mkhammer]

You have the purists that I would count myself as one that want to watch the team, dont expect too much luxury but want an atmosphere and a competitive league...that is geared towards the fan who watches live.
You have the other camp which Whisky is in where they want a glossy product, all the best players in the world playing here even if it means the top 6 pull away and the league is less competitive and luxury facilities plus the game geared towards the TV fan or the fan that sees a player on the playstation and wants to see him play live.

You are absolutely wrong in your assessment of where I stand on the issue. I do however acknowledge the game has evolved from where it was when I started going. I acknowledge, and accept, this because to continually harp on about the past is a pointless exercise.

We have always had those who have and those who haven't. One of my earliest football memories was a bigger, more successful club, Spurs, taking Martin Peters and giving us a past his sell by Jimmy Greaves and a few thousand quid. Of course the gulf has developed into a chasm but that is in part because of the ridiculous FFP regulations which actually prevent wealthy benefactors from turning shabby little nonentity clubs into the "glossy products" you seem to disparage. Where would Chelsea be today without Abramovich, or Man City without Sheikh Mansour ? Is the English game worse off having those 2 clubs being able to challenge the previously undisputed elite ? Would the game not be further improved if more new money could be ploughed into the game with the objective of elevating more of the also rans into serios players ?

And you say I want a "glossy product". I think obnly a neanderthal would honestly say the conditions we endured when we started going to matches were preferable to what we have now. And before we get into a discussion about sitting or standing I do happen to agree that the so called safe standing areas should be encouraged. The stadia we now watch the game in are far superior to some of the crapholes we've visited on our travels in the past. And the quality of pitches has improved immeasurably since the days when Upton Park had been turned into a mudbath by the bloody British Legion Band even before the kick off or games at Derby's old Baseball Ground could only be played when the tide was out.

All of which is getting away from the "working class" thing though. I have never really seen why we insist on lumping people into certain "classes". And what is "working class" ? Is it someone who gets their hands dirty at work as opposed to someone who works in an office ? Is it someone who rents rather than owns their own home ? I honestly don't get it. Nor do I get the notion that a bank manager shouldn't enjoy a game of football as much as a building site labourer. In my book people fall into two categories. A very small minority who have either been born into inherited wealth or have been fortunate enough to win the lottery, and the rest of us who have to go to work, whether it's labouring on a building site or managing a bank, to feed and house our families.

Good post mate .....but there's a 3rd group the guy/girl that doesn't have a lot..works their arses off...Uni/Education...
.....Grafting/building sites.......Market Stall Holder...opens a shop then another and another.....entrepreneurs ,who spot
a gap in the market somewhere....property developers.....Getting wealthy isn't a closed shop...shit loads of luck or
shit loads of graft needed tho.

Think most that go are still pretty much Working Class...
But the bigger more comfortable cleaner stadiums...attracts the corporate bods now....not a lot of that around previously..
The same Corporate bods who will be able to attend games,when limited access to games starts...money talks always
has always will...
Especially with OUR working class owners.....

[Whiskyman]

Mr Whisk doesn’t get the class thing , that’s fair enough he’s obviously a well educated man as well and he’s entitled to his opinion but he’s also aware of the fact that I love winding him up about it in the same way Tassie likes to target his hatred of bubbles ( the song ).

All in good fun .

I like to think I’m a bit of a Footie traditionalist really

Though I don’t dwell TOO much on the past , for example the Boleyn (WHO called it that ffs ?) is gone and I just wish people would get over it .

Mate, what I don't get is the obsession we, as a nation, see, to have about packaging everyone u[p into a particular "class". You say I am well educated but I must be pretty bloody stupid because I genuinely do not know what defines a "working class" individual. I guess it used to be blokes who worked in the docks, or went down a hole in the ground to dig up coal but most of those jobs are long gone. And it can't surely be as simple as saying the bloke who works in a bank and likes to go and watch his football club every other week is working class but the bloke he sits next to at the bank who watches Harlequins and Wasps chasing an egg around is middle class. Honestly, I just don't get it at all.

But long may the winding up continue. And yes, I still hate that fucking dirge.

[Newmarket]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... tball.html

[terrya1965]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... tball.html

IT WAS.

Because,I can hardly afford to go any more.

[only1salty]

And you say I want a "glossy product". I think obnly a neanderthal would honestly say the conditions we endured when we started going to matches were preferable to what we have now. And before we get into a discussion about sitting or standing I do happen to agree that the so called safe standing areas should be encouraged. The stadia we now watch the game in are far superior to some of the crapholes we've visited on our travels in the past. And the quality of pitches has improved immeasurably since the days when Upton Park had been turned into a mudbath by the bloody British Legion Band even before the kick off or games at Derby's old Baseball Ground could only be played when the tide was out.

Put me down as a Neanderthal.

Decently priced tickets, standing for 90 minutes, crazy times when we scored and when we were getting stuffed, all shared by standing shoulder to shoulder in some craphole with a few beers.

Pisses all over my comfy seat at the soulless bowl where the view of the pitch is better from google earth and there are more tourists than windsor castle.

Memories for life have been made at football matches. When I look back at games at the soulless bowl I struggle to remember one. It's not the football - its the people you share it with.

Your neanderthal #1

[Dwayne Pipes]

I must say my view over the shit bowl isn’t too bad Bonzo lower it sometimes needs more atmosphere but that’s down to supporters plus the team actually trying to win a football match.
Don’t buy fuck all inside the ground or the food stalls ,can go without for a couple of hours
Handy for a piss plenty of karzis
The only bug bear is the fucking trek to/from boozer to get to the fucking place
Have been some good times over there Friday night Spurs springs to mind.
Not everyone’s cup of tea I know but have to make what we have more West Hamsy